Katelyn Burns: So, Oliver who we canceling today?
Oliver-Ash Kleine: Let us get rid of Disney Plus they fired that actress from The Mandalorian for speaking up about the way conservatives are oppressed. And, I think that cancel culture is out of control.
Katelyn: So, you want to cancel Disney Plus because cancel culture is out of control?
Oliver-Ash: Yes, like a boycott.
Katelyn: Do you not get mad at other people and say cancel culture is out of control when they also boycott things though?
Oliver-Ash: No. I mean, maybe, kind of but it is really different, okay?
Katelyn: Okay, bro. Hey, everyone. I am Katelyn Burns.
Oliver-Ash: And, I am Oliver-Ash Kleine.
Katelyn: And, you are listening to Cancel Me, Daddy.
Oliver-Ash: The show where we take a closer look at all of the panic around cancel culture.
Katelyn: With thoughtful analysis.
Oliver-Ash: And, verbal shitposting. So, Katelyn, did you see after the very first show we already got two people canceled.
Katelyn: Are you talking about Andy Mills and Donald McNeil Junior at the New York Times?
Oliver-Ash: I absolutely am. They are both out at the paper record. We did it, Katelyn.
Katelyn: I am not sure we actually did it. It sounds a little bit like delusions of grandeur to me.
Oliver-Ash: Okay. It was not us. But, someone who said the n-word and another guy who has a history of alleged sexual harassment and had to give back his PeaBody is no longer employed at one of the most influential papers. This is pretty big news.
Katelyn: I mean, the Cancel Daddy attempted but where they actually fired though?
Oliver-Ash: Technically, no. They negotiated the terms of their resignation. And, I am pretty sure they got pretty sweet deals and a good bit of money. I am glad that they are out but I, unfortunately, do not think them being pushed out has a whole lot to do with making the workplace better or safer. I think they are just really putting out a PR fire which is pretty yikes.
Katelyn: That sounds far right. If you want to hear more about what happened in these situations, you can go back and listen to our first episode two weeks ago.
Oliver-Ash: Now, before we get to the rest of the show, I want to take a moment to thank our Patreon supporters and listeners.
Katelyn: Yes. I was really blown away by the response that we had to our first episode. I was not sure exactly what to expect but it seems like we got a really good reception.
Oliver-Ash: Yes, I know. The response on social media has been wild like so, beyond what I expected and I also appreciate everyone who is been supporting us on Patreon. We have raised a little bit of money that will help us become a weekly show at some point. Right now, we are just publishing every other week.
Katelyn: Also, I am not sure people realize this but reviews and the apple podcast really helped. Then, we have been reading all of your responses. Although, some clowns I think gave us a one-star review just because they do not like us. Not because they do not like the episode? I am just going to say that. But besides that, we are loving all of the love that you all are giving to us.
Oliver-Ash: Claudia shared a really lovely review that said, "All jokes aside, the first episode was incredible. I loved listening to Oliver-Ash and Katelyn's thoughtful insights, and critiques on objectivity, and political journalism, behemoth media corpse, and political correctness across countries. Eagerly awaiting the Cancel Daddy's next target."
Katelyn: I definitely, appreciate their reviews in love and social media it really helps more than you might think.
Oliver-Ash: So, today we are going to start by talking about Gina Carano who was a former star on the Disney Plus show, The Mandalorian. Katelyn, do you want to give us an overview of what is going on with Gina?
Katelyn: Yes. So, Gina was actually like go from the show last week over some social media posts that really sparked a lot of outrage. We are going to read those posts here shortly. So, if you do not want to hear what has been characterized as an anti-semitic Instagram post. I think just skip ahead thirty to sixty seconds here in the show.
Oliver-Ash: Katelyn, do you want to let listeners know who is still with us what the post said?
Katelyn: Yes. So, she wrote on Instagram, "Jewish were beaten in the street not by Nazi soldiers, but by their neighbors even by children because history is edited. Most people today do not realize it. To the point where Nazi soldiers could easily round up thousands of Jews, the government first made their own neighbors hate them simply for being Jews. How is that any different from hating someone for their political views?"
Oliver-Ash: Yikes. That is a pretty bad comparison.
Katelyn: Yes, and I think noting here that I am not Jewish myself. So, I do not have the deep personal connection to this issue that Jewish people do. I do have quite a few Jewish friends who have been having discussions about this who were I think rightfully offended by this post.
Oliver-Ash: And, you are telling me that the picture that accompanied the post was also added additional harm?
Katelyn: Yes. So, the Instagram photo was not actually from Nazi Germany. It was from Lviv, Poland which is now part of modern-day Ukraine, which is the site of a Jewish ghetto. And, I have friends whose family died there. It is not something flip, right? You cannot just make these comparisons like there are no conservative ghettos, there will never be conservative ghettos just for people with political views. I think the comparisons frankly outrageous.
Oliver-Ash: Yes. It is just a really insensitive comparison. It is completely outrageous. Can you go over what the Lucasfilm spokesperson said in response to these posts?
Katelyn: Yes. So, Lucasfilm representative said in a statement Wednesday. Gina Carano is not currently employed by Lucasfilm and there are no plans for her to be in the future. Nevertheless, her social media posts denigrating people based on their cultural and religious identities are abhorrent and unacceptable.
Oliver-Ash: So, the response to this has been a lot of people noting that Gina is losing work as no longer on The Mandalorian. I have not watched The Mandalorian, and so reading this a question I had. The statement said that she is unemployed and there are no plans for her to be employed. Was she actually cut from the show? Will she like a central character who is now being cut? Was it unclear? I am just really confused about that.
Katelyn: So, her character is kind of the leading female role in the show. And, I know that there were plans to have Gina co-star in another Disney Plus show that is like a spinoff. So, I think those were the two big things that she had going on Lucasfilm, which obviously would not be happening anymore.
Oliver-Ash: Okay. So, she definitely is losing work in response to this it seems.
Katelyn: One-hundred percent.
Oliver-Ash: Okay. She was also dropped by her talent agency.
Katelyn: That is correct. But again a big caveat she already has a new agent and it was announced last Friday that she has been signed by Ben Shapiro's company, The Daily Wire. They actually have an entertainment division. She is going to be starring or producing some as-yet-unnamed production.
Oliver-Ash: I hate it.
Katelyn: Yes.
Oliver-Ash: I hate it.
Katelyn: Every time this happens, there is some conservative. This is just like the Josh Hawley thing from two weeks ago where he went on this media tour about being canceled and yet this conservative imprint regenerate picked up his book deal. There is like this right-wing reputation laundering cycle that like everybody who ends up losing work out of quote-unquote cancel culture gets run through. Where they can continue to make a profit and I guess this why we have a show, right?
Oliver-Ash: It is what? Yes, and the other thing about Gina is this is one and a long line of really insensitive and disrespectful posts.
Katelyn: Yes. So, I think late last year she made fun of trans people by putting beep, bop, boop in her bio for her pronouns.
Oliver-Ash: Yes. I saw that she tried to say that she was not making fun of trans people. It was about exposing the bullying mentality of the mob that has taken over the voices of many genuine causes. It was like saying, "Oh, she loves trans people". But, like you are making fun of pronouns. That is transphobic. Sorry.
Katelyn: Yes, it is like the usual line of like, "Oh, we are not actually hating trans people were just hating the liberals that go too far and supporting them." And, it is just a joke. Like everybody knows a pronoun joke is a poke at trans people at this point. She also spread a lot of fear-mongering inaccuracies about voter fraud in the 2020 election. She has shared anti-mask means for Covid and she liked tweets supporting the January 6th insurrection and post that deny systemic racism. So, it is like there is a long line of her just like inserting her political views into the public forum and people are allowed to react to that. Like that is what the marketplace of free ideas is supposed to be is, you put your ideas out and people can respond. If you take away people's ability to respond, you are actually the totalitarian in that situation.
Oliver-Ash: I agree with that and I think that like some people will say like, "Oh, well, you are saying that because you do not agree with her views blah, blah, blah." But, I think that if you are putting out ideas and views that harm people, that dehumanize people, it seems reasonable that there is going to be a negative reaction to that. And, there might be harm sequences for that. It's not about my political views. It is about like I respect people.
Katelyn: Yes, and New York Magazine's Jonathan Chait actually had a piece on Friday comparing Kronos firing to the Hollywood communism blacklists of like the 1950s.
Oliver-Ash: Yes.
Katelyn: Like a theism era and his argument. I think it is a fair argument to make. I do not necessarily think it holds water. But, his argument is basically like she holds pretty bog-standard conservative political views and she is being punished for that like that his argument. I am not sure I buy that I do think that post comparing conservatives to Jewish people living in Polish ghettos. It definitely, crosses an anti-semitism line. One of the frustrations that I have in this point is that this is always the progression that these conservatives, celebrities make right as they start with these "mainstream conservative views". And, then they push the line and every time they get a fresh round of attention and publicity then they cross the line, right? That opens up the chase of the world to say, "Well, she actually is just being a pretty standard conservative" and it is like, "Yes, no kidding."
Katelyn: We have seen this act before where people will just push their social media presence to a point where people can ignore it anymore. I think that is what happened here. One of the things that I always found on Twitter is transphobia. The pronoun joke is almost always a leading indicator of some other bigotry coming behind it. It is worth noting that Lucasfilm had nothing to say about her transphobic jokes in the past. Not to make this a trans thing, but there is a pretty usual progression here for a lot of conservative personalities. I think Gina followed it and now she is going cash in on the cancel culture grift economy.
Oliver-Ash: Yes. I mean, you look at Ben Shapiro her buddy who is getting her new job now. The start of his career was really focused on transphobia and just making fun of trans people.
Katelyn: Yes. It is just a script that we have seen over and over and over again. To return it to Chait's column, I do not think that this is modern-day McCarthyism. There are a great many Hollywood actors who are conservatives and who still get work. I think this particular post crossed a line that you are not supposed to cross, honestly.
Oliver-Ash: I would say that the other thing that makes us really different from McCarthyism is it is not a government effort to silence people based on their political views. Like when we are talking about McCarthyism we are talking about the government trying to root out dissent and target people who disagree with them, right?
Katelyn: You are actually correct. Chait himself actually notes this and his piece where he talks about Dalton Trumbo who is a Hollywood writer and who is blacklisted for following the Communist Party Line in the 1950s. But, the difference is Trumbo was hauled in front of the house on the American Activities Committee which does not exist at this point. And, Gina Carano will not be called in front of a house committee to testify about her political views. So, that is one big difference. I do not think the comparison to McCarthyism is apt, but I do wonder whether there is a double standard between how actors with conservative views or treated versus liberal views. I would love to get your thoughts on that.
Oliver-Ash: So, I see what people say when they say that there is a double standard because if you look at mainstream Republican and mainstream Democrat opinions, more mainstream Republican viewpoints are going to face criticism because a lot of them are based on bigotry. And, I think that is fair. I think that is not so much of a political thing. It is a bigotry thing. It does happen to align with politics as well. But I actually do not think there is a double standard because when you look at people who are to the left of the Democratic Party, who are speaking out against oppression and racism, who was talking in support of abolition and kind of more radical change, you see people facing consequences for that when their beliefs go too far for their employer.
Oliver-Ash: We saw this in 2017 with L'Oréal Paris model Munroe Bergdorf. Monroe was fired for talking out against systemic racism. I would argue that there is not a double standard at all. Actually, the standards that we have around, what is acceptable to say, have been historically weighted towards conservative viewpoints. And, are moving a little bit to the center, but I would not say it is necessarily a double standard.
Katelyn: Yes, I mean nobody is getting canceled over calling for lower tax rates. Like the context matters and, I think part of the problem that you are seeing with all of this is the conservatives so much of what they believe. Nowadays is just all cultural stuff about hoop counts as a person, or who counts as an American, or who counts as a voter. They chose to insert themselves in a lot of these frankly non-political but cultural issues. It is no surprise that people are going to react negatively to that sort of thing. I think that Lucasfilm and L'Oréal both reacted to what they saw as a PR nightmare, but I do not think that the two situations are comparable.
Oliver-Ash: No, they are really not.
Katelyn: I guess this is part of what the complaints about cancel culture are all about is that these people get scared of the PR disasters. But, I do not know how you can curve that. Like you cannot ban people from complaining about somebody. It is especially around like the conservatives are always complaining about cancel culture because they also advocate for right-to-work laws that take away employee rights to challenge these firings. So, it is almost a double standard on their part. It is no like the employees, in general, should not be allowed to appeal negative employment decisions, but also we should never be punished in our workplace for being assholes. And, it is like you need to pick one side or the other, you cannot have it both ways. Because the only way I see it now is conservatives are basically saying you have no right to complain about anything I say and that is just not how a free society functions.
Oliver-Ash: It is not, that is how they want it to.
Katelyn: It is also deeply ironic to me that Gina Carano is some sort of right-wing figurehead now because of this. Because when she first came into The Mandalorian, her character is like the strong woman who can really handle her own and she regularly beats up male stormtroopers and villains on the show. It actually drew a lot of complaints from right-wingers because these are people who do not believe that women should be portrayed a stronger than men. Ironically, she is now a hero.
Oliver-Ash: Wait. The people who are upset that she is been let go of the show were angry when she was first introduced on The Mandalorian.
Katelyn: Many of them, yes.
Oliver-Ash: Oh, my God. There is no logical cohesion. It is all just whether you agree with them or not.
Katelyn: Right. If you are conservative you can do whatever you want. If you are not a conservative you should be stamped out and silenced. That is pretty much how they roll.
Oliver-Ash: I think something that really highlights this is all these people who are frustrated and angry about cancel culture have the hashtag cancel Disney Plus trending. If you think cancel culture is bad and is going too far. Why are you calling for the cancellation of anything?
Katelyn: Yes. It is like you also see cancel culture being invoked whenever there is a boycott that happens. What was the thing in the campaign? Was it the Bean Company that supposedly the owner supported Trump or like SoulCycle? I think they had the same thing where the owner of the business was a Trump supporter. So, like liberals will kind of like, I do not really want to associate with this and the right-wingers going, "Oh, it is cancel culture.", "Oh, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread." But now they are doing the same thing to Disney Plus. Maybe this is just a thing that happens where normal people have normal reactions to things that are happening to society. Maybe it is not actually cancel culture. Maybe it is just people disagreeing and maybe that is okay.
Oliver-Ash: Not wanting to buy something because if he would be supporting, it is not cancel culture. That is my right to use my money how I want to use it, right?
Katelyn: It is letting the market decide.
Oliver-Ash: Is it not just capitalism and free speech? Is it not what that is?
Katelyn: Oh, my God. We are arguing for capitalism now.
Oliver-Ash: I hate it.
Katelyn: But it is like that meme you partake in society and yet you have cited or you are criticizing society, but you are participating in society. I am so smart. It is like that. It is like this is the system that we have and, take it or leave it.
Oliver-Ash: I will leave it.
Katelyn: I will leave it too.
Oliver-Ash: And just a minute. We are going to talk to the incredible journalist, Sara Luterman, and discuss whether Sia should be canceled for her new movie music. The way the singer has been disrespecting autistic people speaking out against it stay tuned.
Oliver-Ash: Hey everyone, if you are enjoying Cancel Me, Daddy, there is another podcast that I think you are going to want to check out. See news and culture shows are not made with trans folks like us in mind and trans voices are routinely left out of the conversation even though stories about us are everywhere.
Katelyn: The TransLash Podcast with Imara Jones is changing that and giving your communities a voice.
Oliver-Ash: Imara Jones is a Peabody and Emmy Award winner. She is also a black trans woman and a journalist. And Imara understands that telling our own stories and having a voice in the conversations that affect us will save trans lives.
Katelyn: So, if you are trans and want to show made for you or an ally who wants to learn more you should definitely tune in to the trans/podcast.
Oliver-Ash: You should really listen and I am not just saying that because I am a producer on the show. I have really found that listening to Imara has given me a little bit more hope in our world and our country. I think the way that she talks about things holds a lot of space for this despair that a lot of us feel, but also gives us reasons to hope and I have found her perspectives to be really valuable. Katelyn was actually on the show not too long ago.
Katelyn: That is right. I have fun memories of that appearance. We had a great discussion. I was really taken with how Imara is such a skilled interviewer. It was really an interesting connection to be part of.
Oliver-Ash: You can hear a new episode of the trans/podcast every other Thursday. So, what are you waiting for? Subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts right now.
Katelyn: We are so excited to have the one and only Sara Luterman as the very first guest on the show. If you are not familiar with Sara, you should be. She is one of the top journalists covering disability with bylines in The Nation, The American Prospect, Slate, Vox, The New Republic and so many other publications. We also have to live in the same building. So, this is especially a thrill for me. Sara, thank you so much for joining us.
Sara: Thanks for having me. I am excited.
Katelyn: It has been so long since we have seen each other.
Sara: Yes, the plague has been interesting for people's social lives.
Oliver-Ash: So, I appreciate you coming on the show to talk about this absolute mess. That is Sia's new movie music and her handling of the criticism around it. For those who have not been following this, the musician came under fire last year when the trailer launched. Due to the irresponsible and offensive portrayal of autism in the film that was bad enough, but then Sia double down and lashed out at people criticizing the film, many of whom are autistic. It is just been a really nasty and sad episode watch unfold. Is there anything that you would add to that Sara?
Sara: It is all even nastier and sad for once you look at it from an inside perspective. It just gets so much weirder. It is such a weird pop culture saga.
Oliver-Ash: Yes. So, one of the things that Sia tweeted when people started criticizing the film was, "Fuckity Fuck, why do not you watch my film and judge it". Sara, I understand that you took one for the team and actually watch the film. How did it compare to what you expected?
Sara: So, Fuckity Fuck I did watch it. Yes, it is a bad movie aside from any kind of offense. I just felt uncomfortable watching it. It was just very to use internet parlance cringe. I felt embarrassed for everyone involved in the movie more than I felt defense.
Oliver-Ash: Why did you feel embarrassed about it?
Sara: So, the character music is played by Maddie Ziegler who is a collaborator of Sia's in a lot of the stuff that she has done. Yes. So, Ziegler was a teenager. I think she urgently got her to start on Dance Moms and in some of the earlier interviews. Apparently, she was worried that people would think she was making fun of autistic people. Sia reassured her that was not the case and I think that all of the adults in her life have failed her profoundly by telling her that. It is like she watched a whole bunch of videos of autistic people on YouTube. Then, decided to try to imitate them and it comes off as really just ham-fisted and clumsy. I was not even offended. I just felt bad for her.
Katelyn: I was reading a Twitter thread yesterday that sort of showed clips from the movie. Basically, it was like this is completely over-the-top and I am called for especially with an actor who is not autistic themselves.
Sara: Yes. So, a lot of the conversation around music both on social media and in more traditional media has been around casting neurotypical actress Maddie Ziegler for the role. I understand the importance of that conversation because we are underrepresented in the acting community and there are not a lot of opportunities, but honestly, I do not think that the role would have been improved by casting someone autistic because the story itself is just so awful. That there is nothing you could do. Different casting would just be putting a hat on a problem. The autistic character is not really a person and pretty much just exists to further the redemption arc of the neurotypical sibling character. So, it is basically like the main thrust of the story is about music sister Zu. Zu is a recovering alcoholic and is forced to care for her autistic sister Music after their grandmother who was previously caring for her dies. So, Zu struggles with this new responsibility and grows as a person and it is all. It all works out because she has a heart of gold and it is like yes, you have heard that story before.
Oliver-Ash: Too many times. So, I have been saying that the way Sia has handled this is basically how not to be an ally 101 because it is just stunning to me. How poorly she has responded to the criticism. I am wondering what her response is illustrated to you about her understanding of autism and her capability of telling a story like this with care.
Sara: Well, my first thought when she started tweeting that stuff was where is her publicist? Like if I was her publicist I would be like, "All right, time to log off". But, I feel like Sia is just in this place in her life where she just has so much money and is so insulated that no one is willing to tell her that she is had a bad idea. When people in the real world respond to like her bad ideas, she is just like, "I cannot handle it". She is so insulated from criticism and from anybody telling her that anything she is thought of is maybe not great.
Oliver-Ash: Yes. No. It has been really painful to watch, and she is just really doubled down. I am sure you saw a but see a told an autistic actor who is saying there were lots of other people who are actually autistic who could have played the lead role that maybe that person just a bad actor. She also defended herself by saying she consulted with Autism Speaks, which definitely is not an organization you should be going to.
Sara: So, the funny thing about that is Autism Speaks has a reputation for being awful. They deserve that reputation. But interestingly enough, they actually did not meet with Sia and tweeted as much and also said that Sia maybe should have considered casting an autistic actor. Even Autism Speaks was like "I do not want to be involved in this"
Katelyn: When you floss Autism Speaks.
Sara: Yeah. Even Autism Speaks was like Keanu I don't want to be involved.
Oliver-Ash: Wow.
Katelyn: Have there been autism-type organizations or advocacy organizations that have defended Sia in the movie?
Sara: Yeah. There is just one. I guess this kind of goes back to one of the big conflicts in the autism community. This is really oversimplifying it is between autistic adults and parents. I do not think that the lines are actually that clearly drawn but that is sort of like the really really simplified version of the conflict. The idea is who speaks for the community? Who is the voice of the community? Who should be telling our stories? How should those stories be told? So at this point, neurodiversity likes the idea that autistic people can speak for themselves. That is pretty well established in the culture. But, there is this really small group of parents that just completely cannot handle that. So they went and formed this little teeny nonprofit called the National Council on severe autism. Basically, they are like the Voltron of parent bloggers with bad opinions.
Katelyn: Oh God.
Sara: They do not really have a coherent ideology. I think it is important to emphasize that the only thing that they believe in is that anything that is the opposite of neurodiversity is good. It does not matter what it is. Just like the opposite of neurodiversity is good for these guys. Back when the backlash started against music, they decided that "Oh autistic adults on the internet think this movie is bad. Therefore, we think it is good." So, they have been running this campaign about how actually music is really good before they ever saw it and before they knew anything about it. They have like all these blog posts up on their website about how music represents the severe autism community and, it really does not. Music is really functional, actually. She really only has problems when it is convenient for the plot and does not actually need that much help from Zu. Basically, they did not know anything about the movie. They just saw that "Oh, well, I see that autistic people on the Internet or upset, therefore we will embrace this."
Katelyn: Mmm.
Sara: Yeah. They have been really happy to just glom to whatever ideological vehicle will have them and that is sort of actually most recently been right-wing contrarian type websites like Colette or Spiked because everybody else realized that their argument is garbage. The best part is Sia ended up sharing a bunch of stuff from their organization because they were the only autism organization to say good things about them. She retweeted this blog post from this dude named [inaudible] Leventhal who thinks that yogurt cured his autism. Just like complete cranks and she boosted them just because "Oh but if there is an autistic person who agrees with me" Sorry that was a bit of a rant.
Katelyn: No, it is okay.
Oliver-Ash: You should have seen my face during that round. It was all scrunched up and like horrified because of that group.
Katelyn: Yeah, same though.
Sara: Yeah. I do not know. They are just really dedicated to the idea that autistic people should not have civil rights and that is their thing. Sia decided that was okay because it meant that an autistic person was telling her she did an okay job.
Katelyn: Backtracking a little bit, I do have another question about the movie itself. So, I understand that one of the things that folks who are particularly alarmed about with the movie is its portrayal of so, they called prone restraint.
Sara: Yeah.
Katelyn: This practice has killed people and is considered incredibly dangerous. I think Sia gave an apology about the scenes and added a warning.
Sara: She did not add the warning. It is all BS.
Katelyn: She did not the warning. Okay.
Sara: Yeah. She said she was going to and then she did not. I was not sure because the review copy I had did not have the warning so I thought, "Oh, maybe it will be in the general release, but now-
Katelyn: Was Sia's apologies empty or like?
Sara: Yeah, that was empty. She did not change anything. She did not put up a warning. The only reason she is even sorry is that people were angry at her. The worst thing about the prone restraint in the movie is that it is portrayed as like this normal loving thing that people do to their autistic loved ones. The first time it happens, she is not facedown. She is faced up which is supine restraint. Supine restraint is actually safer in terms of the person not dying but also it is a situation where you have the person holding you down his body pressed up against you. Basically, it is a situation where Leslie Autumn Junior is on top of a teenage girl on the ground, and when the character, Zu says, "Oh, no. Are you hurting her?" He says, "I am just crushing her with my love."
Sara: And then, later on, he coaches her through doing it in the park. That is the moment where the prone restraint is involved. Both times, it is just treated like this natural helpful thing that you do when someone's having a meltdown or a hard time, and actually, it is really traumatic and sometimes kills people. She just did not do any research. It is ridiculous. I do not understand how you make a whole movie and not have anyone go, "Maybe having a fully grown man hold a teenage girl down on the ground is not a great idea, or hmm? Maybe the optics of this are not great or Hmm? Maybe holding down someone who is kicking and struggling might be dangerous." Just none of that crossed their minds.
Katelyn: Yeah. So, it seems like the criticism is pretty fair in this instance.
Sara: Yeah. The thing that extra sucks about it is I have some friends and part of the community that is non-speaking like the character in the movie. They are actually part of this organization called Communication First. They were given a review copy of the movie. They are actually the reason that Sia said that she would add the warning and removed the scenes. But then, she did not end up doing that. So my friends in that community, a lot of them have been restrained that way before in school or psychiatric hospital situations or other situations with staff and it is traumatizing. It is a traumatizing thing to do to someone. To treat it like it is just this light normal thing was just terrible for them. I am not offended by this movie in the same sense that I think that a lot of other people are but I can understand. It is just awful. She just did not think about other people at all.
Oliver-Ash: No. She was talking about how she did the research for three years and did all her homework and stuff. I was like, "No, you did not even try."
Sara: I think she just watched a whole bunch of YouTube videos and then decided she was an expert.
Oliver-Ash: Well and something else that was really troubling to me that came up in your review was the anti Blackness and racism.
Sara: I do not feel like I am an expert on that because it is not really my lane. But yeah, it did seem pretty racist. I had to watch the movie twice before I actually realized what country both the character was from because they only say it once in passing. The rest of the time when he talks about it, there is this very primitive Africa sense of where he comes from in the movie. That is really offensive. I thought Leslie Autumn Junior was savvier than this. He basically shows up to be like the autism whisperer to teach Zu how to handle her autistic sister. He barely has a backstory. The reason that they say in the story that he can handle Zu is that he had an autistic brother. But, they only mentioned him once. We do not know what his name is and then he was never mentioned again. He basically does not exist.
Oliver-Ash: No, it sounds like all of that was handled. The whole movie just sounds like a big mess.
Sara: Oh, yeah. The whole thing is just a garbage fire. I think it is kind of hilarious that Sia is like. So there is this hashtag now on Twitter. It is like stop bullying Sia and it was like, I am sorry using like a bunch of autistic people and Twitter or bullying a pop star.
Katelyn: Mmm.
Sara: What? I am pretty sure Sia is fine. I guess her feelings are probably
hurt since everyone hates her movie. But, she is probably floating around on a pool full of crystal right now. She has got a bajillion dollars. It is ridiculous. There is nothing that anybody on Twitter could do or say that would actually hurt Sia.
Oliver-Ash: What do you think about the media coverage of this movie in the controversy? How do you think it has been?
Sara: It is actually really interesting because there has been a lot of responses like this to the previous offense of portrayals of autism and usually nobody listens. Usually, it is just like a bunch of people on the internet yelling into the void. But, this time there was general media interest. I think someone at slate wrote an article about the controversy. That was not me. It is really interesting to see that the stuff that my community says matters because like when Raymond came out, the people in the autistic community were saying the same things about Rain Man that they said about music. Rain Man was a really well-regarded film because nobody was listening to our community. So yeah, I guess I do not know. I feel weird about retracting a film that is already been released but it probably should not have existed at all. At least I am a little gratified that people are listening to the criticism instead of just ignoring that autistic people exist and have opinions.
Katelyn: So obviously our show is about you know "Cancel culture", I wanted to ask a little bit about how do we resolve these things when situations like Sia's pop up where somebody does something that is just grossly offensive to an entire community of people. Those people in my mind have a right to criticize right? That is free speech.
Sara: It is definitely not bullying.
Katelyn: But then, you have this whole economy of voices who immediately jump anytime those criticisms of somebody. They are jumping and saying this is Cancel culture. This should not be happening. But, if you are saying that criticism is not allowed, where do we draw the line with this? I would love to hear your perspective on where do we go from here?
Sara: Yeah. So, I think it is ridiculous to describe Sia as being canceled over this. This is not going to stop her from making more music. It probably would not even stop her from making more movies. The only thing that is happening is that other people who are not historically in the room have been able to say on a larger platform than they used to be able to that the movies not good. I do not really know what to do after something like this comes out. But, I do think that having more autistic people in the arts, in media, in journalism telling more complex stories about autism from autistic perspectives. All of those things would add up to an environment where movie-like music simply would not get made. So, I think that that is sort of where I hope we are headed.
Katelyn: Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Sara, thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure.
Sara: Thanks for having me.
Katelyn: How can our listeners follow you and support your important work going forward?
Sara: I am on Twitter at S-L-O-O-T-E-R-M-A-N, slooterman. I am extremely online. So, I usually tweet out my articles pretty regularly. I also have a newsletter called The NOS letter that I am doing through Substack. If people want to subscribe to that, I would be pretty gratified. I do like a round-up every week of all of the disability rights and neurodiversity news that is going on like policy stuff and culture stuff. A lot of the time I write a short essay about something that I could not get a publication to accept. If people wanted to subscribe to my newsletter, that would be really cool. Thanks, guys.
Oliver-Ash: You just heard us talking with Sara Luterman, a talented journalist writing about disability with bylines in places like the Nation, the American Prospect Box, the New Republic, and many many more.
Katelyn: We hope you enjoyed today's show. If you did make sure you are subscribed. So you get our episodes every other Thursday.
Oliver-Ash: And, we love hearing from you. We want to hear more from you. Let us know what you want us to cover, what you like about the show. Leave us nice reviews on the Apple podcast and we love just hearing your thoughts on social media.
Katelyn: If you want to support us in becoming a weekly show, you can also join our Patreon. We have some great rewards. We are getting a Discord Community going and you can get early access to some of our episodes
Oliver-Ash: And, some of our biggest supporters will be getting some information about our very first monthly video call soon. You can join and learn more about other perks at patreon.com/cancelmedaddy. So that is another one in the books for us, Katelyn. What do you think?
Katelyn: The one thing I am struck by every time we go to record. This is how much material we have to work with. It is like we could have done one of any like ten different topics this week so it is very hard. I think sometimes to choose between what is going on.
Oliver-Ash: Yeah, I mean we did not even get to talk about constitutional cancel culture or Joss Whedon, or any of the other nonsense going on right now.
Katelyn: I cannot wait to see what bubbles up in the discourse over the next two weeks.
Oliver-Ash: I can wait, but I am excited to record our next episode.
Katelyn: See everybody next time.
Oliver-Ash: Today's show was made by me, Oliver Ash Clyde, and Kaitlyn Burns. Daniel Peter Schmidt made our theme song and Eden MW designed our graphics. We also used music from Paddington Bear. Our show is made possible by our incredible cancelers on Patreon. A big shout-out to Megan, the first person in the cancel Hall of Fame who is been bestowed the great power of cancellation. Happy canceling.
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